Julien Baker & Matt Nathanson

“I run from inspiration. The uncertainty of it terrifies me. I don’t understand it and can’t control it, and that scares me.”—Matt Nathanson

“I don’t make music because I might be good at it. I make music because it’s a vital form of self-expression.”—Julien Baker

Some artists create because they like the process and the product. They like what they do and they’re good at it, whether they’re amateurs or professionals.

But other artists create because they need to create. They have to write songs. It’s a self-actualizing and at times even a survival instinct, a primal drive. Because of this, external forces like love or relationships or world upheaval aren’t always drivers. These artists create because they must create. And at times, it may not even be enjoyable.

This is what I thought about after my interview with Julien Baker and Matt Nathanson. It struck me in the metaphors they use to describe lyric writing: words like “shitting” and “puking,” images of violent expulsion that can also bring a tremendous sense of relief—and that are intertwined with instinct and drive. But there’s also genuine anxiety, and at times fear, attached to the songwriting process for both artists. Nathanson told me that inspiration “terrifies” him. “It’s a scary place to let yourself go and get swept up in the experience because my brain wants to assert itself,” he told me. Baker told me that the songwriting process “is a vital form of self-expression.”

Baker is a big runner, and she gets a lot her songwriting ideas on her runs. Unfortunately, this can mean a lot of stopping: when a melody appears, she takes a break, crouches down, and records it. And nature is where she’s most productive too. “I can take my thoughts more seriously in nature too,” she says. “It forces me to be present in my body. It’s not compulsive rumination; it’s actual constructive thinking.”

What you’ll see in this video is not two songwriters talking about the specifics of their creative process. I was prepared to ask about those specifics like I usually do. But after beginning the interview by asking Baker about her ritual and seeing the two of them talk to each other, my work was done because they took it from there. This is a deep dive into the psychology of the songwriting process with all the fears and anxieties that accompany it.

Watch or listen to my interview with Julien Baker and Matt Nathanson!